Senedd members have refused to back calls for the law around assisted dying in England and Wales to be changed. While the Senedd doesn't have the power to change the law the motion called on the Welsh Government to both support the principle of assisted dying and support Westminster to "introduce a compassionate assisted dying law in England and Wales".
The vote, which was non-binding, was lost with 19 voting in favour, nine abstaining, and 26 voting against. MSs did not have to vote on party lines after being given a so-called free vote. The hope of those who were in support of the change is that if the Senedd backed it then it would put pressure on Westminster to enact a change in the law across the UK. Kim Leadbeater MP has introduced her Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill to the House of Commons which will be heard on Friday, November 29.
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In her opening comments Julie Morgan said more "compassion" needs to be shown to "people who are suffering intolerably from an incurable illness and who have a settled wish to die". She added: "At the moment one person every eight days goes from the UK to Dignitas or somewhere similar in Switzerland. Under the present legislation any relative or friend who assists them are liable for prosecution; they are criminalised. I listened to Sir Max Hill, former director of public prosecutions, who said it was very clear to him that the law is not working. During his period of office he had 27 people referred to him – relatives of people who had died – and, in 26 cases, he took no further action. These were elderly people, usually in their 70s and their 80s, who’d just lost someone very close to them and he said it took, sometimes, up to two years for a decision to be made not to prosecute. Imagine having that hanging over you at a time of great loss. What a cruel law. Surely we can do better than that."
One opponent, Conservative MS Darren Millar, said in his contribution: "Legalising assisted suicide would send a clear message that some lives are not worth living and I don't think that that's a message that any civilised society, frankly, should be promoting to any of its citizens, especially when there are many people across Wales right now who are enjoying a fulfilling life in spite of their terminal illness or in spite of a debilitating condition. I think that is why so many disabled people are opposed to a change in the law in this area."
In an emotional address Brecon and Radnorshire MS James Evans told the Senedd he would back the law following a promise he made his late grandmother. He also shared a story of a woman who chose not to go to Dignitas in Switzerland over fears her husband would be prosecuted. She starved herself of food and water in order to die. "There's nothing religiously moral about that. That's suffering. No-one should have to end their life that way, no-one should have to end their life way and anyone who thinks they should...shame on you".
Recap the debate in full below:
Key Events
Motion does not pass
What is being debated today?
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First Minister did not back motion
Senedd members did not have to vote on party lines, the cabinet was also given a free vote. The vote was lost by 19 (for) to 26 (against), there were nine abstentions.
The voting record shows current First Minister Eluned Morgan and her health minister Jeremy Miles both voted against. Former First Minister Vaughan Gething abstained from voting, while Mark Drakeford backed it.
The Conservative group leader Andrew RT Davies voted against, while Plaid Cymru leader Rhun ap Iorwerth voted in favour. Sole Lib Dem Jane Dodds did not back the motion.
KEY EVENT
Motion does not pass
MSs have voted against the motion.
For: 19
Abstain: 9
Against: 26
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Vote taking place
The vote is now taking place.
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Debate concludes
The vote will take place later this evening, likely after 7.30pm.
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'Shame on you'
He shares a story, with permission, from a man who says he "watched his wife starve to death because she did not want her husband prosecuted if they went to Dignatas". He says she suffered for a week sarving herself of food and drink. "There's nothing religiously moral about that. That's suffering. No-one should have to end their life that way, no-one should have to end their life way and anyone who thinks they should...shame on you".
He says there has been a shift in attitude and thanks the tireless campaigners who have asked for this law to change. "If we are given the option to do this, I think we should do it".
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Emotional final contribution
Conservative Brecon and Radnorshire MS James Evans, who has co-signed the bill, is closing the debate. He says he will support the motion. "We all get into politics for certain reasons, I did because I gave my grandmother a promise that I would never let anyone go through what she went through at the end of her life".
He says his grandparents made a decision together that she would not suffer. She had a stroke and had, he says, no quality of life. His grandfather refused a feeding peg for her but he says he was in turn told that he refused it, he would be prosecuted for manslaughter saying his grandfather regretted allowing them to put the feeding tube in for the rest of his life.
This has to come forward. We owe people their right to make their own decisions. People can make decisions about their lives on a daily basis, how they choose to live it, who they choose to live, people who they even vote for but we're not giving them the right at the end of their life to make a choice about whether to end their life in dignity or pain.
Some people may decide they don't want to choose the assisted dying route, and will go down the palliative care route. We have to fund that properly, but we have to give people the right to choose.
Mr Evans says it isn't for policy makers to make the right. "We talk about compassion and one in eight are going to Dignitas, that's people who feel they have no other option in this country, and that's only the people who can afford it".
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Free vote for all Labour MSs
Jeremy Miles is the Senedd member for Neath and the health minister in the Welsh Government. Mr Miles says assisted dying is not devolved, but there would be huge ramifications in Wales.
He says government and Labour politicians will have a free vote, and he will vote accordingly but he is giving the government response to the practical impact of what a law about assisted dying could mean for Wales.
He says if an assisted dying bill continued through the process, they would speak to the UK Government but it is, he thinks, "likely" to be devolved implications, and "if the law on assisted dying is to change there will be long reaching implications to the health service and end of life services in Wales".
He says, whatever happens, they have to continue to improve palliative care here in Wales.
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'We should fix palliative care...not this'
Conservative MS Mark Isherwood, who represents North Wales, says assisted dying is the "antithesis" of palliative care and the priority should be to fix that, not to legalise assisted dying.
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Issue is 'complex and emotional'
Conservative Aberconwy MS Janet Finch-Saunders says the issue is complex and emotional. She says the motion is "ambigious" and she does not understand what it means when saying "intolerable pain".
Ms Finch-Saunders says doctors take a hypocratic oath to help the sick to the best of their judgement, "and not use their skill or knowledge to harm or kill patients, and this is what we're talking about here".
She says it can take up to 137 hours for someone to die with drugs given as part of the assisted dying process. "We've got to be realistic about what we're asking the government to take responsibility for".
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'Death is not always the peaceful experience we would all wish for'
Labour's Jenny Rathbone, Cardiff Central MS, discusses palliative care and says she vividly remembers an experience from nine years ago when a constituent told her the experience her husband had. She said the description of his last hours in a hospice were distressing for all those present.
She apologises for detail shared but says "death is not always the peaceful experience we would all wish for".
Ms Rathbone says there will be other cultures in the world who deal with death better than the UK. "This is really difficult and I understand we need to progress cautiously".
"I do support the bill coming forward in the House of Commons," she said.
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'People are already making this choice'
Heledd Fychan, the Plaid Cymru MS for South Wales Central, says everyone will have their own views but for her it is about allowing people to make their own choice. She says people are left in appalling pain even with "the best palliative care".
"People are already making this choice, they are leaving this country without the support of loved ones...they are making that choice by commiting suicide."
Let's not pretend this isn't happening
She says people don't all have nice deaths "like we see in movies". Ms Fychan has an interjection by Darren Millar where he says people who have an assisted death too can have long deaths and it can still take a long time and there can be complications. She says "we need to get it absolutely right but I believe someone has the right to choose".
"I don't feel I have that right to force a person to carry on suffering.
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Motion is 'fraught with dangers'
Darren Millar, the Conservative MS for Clwyd West speaks about his Christian faith and says "assisted suicide is wrong" and is "fraught with dangers".
He says the motion before the Senedd goes beyond what is being discussed in the Commons and Scottish Parliament because there it is for people who are terminally ill, but here the definition is wider. He says the phrase "terminally ill" does not feature in today's motion and the term of "intolerable suffering" is much broader.
He says coercion is "almost impossible to detect" and peoples attitudes to illness "does often change".
He says where assisted suicide has been introduced it has a "disproportionate impact" on those who are poorer.
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'Who am I to have a say?'
South Wales Central Independent MS Rhys ab Owen says he has mixed feelings about this matter. "Who am I to have a say, I don't have a terminal diagnosis," he says, opening his contribution.
He references his father, Owen John Thomas, a former politician, who had Alzheimer's who went from being passionate to not being able to do anything. "They were cruel years, cruel to us as a family, and there are no words to describe how cruel it was for him".
"Who am I to force someone to live through that experience if they don't want to".
But he says, on the other hand, his father's smile was "still there" and families are "complex things". He asks if assisted dying would happen in a hospital near those whose lives are being saved. He says he has lost a number of people in a hospice, and wonders if that would become a setting for assisted dying.
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'"The decision must be theirs and theirs alone'
Plaid Cymru MS Adam Price says people suffering at the end of their life should get the choice over how their life ends. He says he recognises the concerns and says they need to be acknowledged. But he says a well-designed policy framework could bring forward a law that also shows compassion.
He says people have to have the right to make decisions about their own lives and deaths. He says people with terminal illness should be at the centre of this debate. "The decision must be theirs and theirs alone". He says people should be given details of all options avaiable to them, including palliative care to ensure the decision is voluntary and well-informed.
He says disabled people might feel pressured to take the decision. "That's a valid worry but it can be addressed," he says via multiple assessments from numerous experts and mandatory waiting periods.
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'This suggests not all lives have the same value'
North Wales MS Conservative MS Sam Rowlands says he will be voting against. He says all lives are precious and "this motion implies a message that not all lives have the same value in our society". "That's not something I can sign up to," he says.
He says in a situation where someone feels they have become a burden to those around them, "it goes from a right to a duty to die." "That then, is no longer a choice but a perceived duty".
Mr Rowlands is challenged when he discussed examples of people who have conditions like anorexia or mental illness have been offered the option of assisted dying. "I fear that would be exactly the same here because there would be a challenge in a court of law".
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'The role of government is not to deny me my choice'
He says we have reached a stage that parliament has to make a decision on it. "The legislation is a very focused piece of legislation," he says. The trained lawyer says "there are very sensitive and emotive views" but this is a decision that has to be taken. He says while the criminal element about it is not a devolved matter, but the result would be, because it could eventually fall into the health brief which is devolved.
For me this is about choice. This is about the dignity of choice, and death. It is about my right to choose, the role of government is not to deny me that choice but to set the legislative framework so that choice can be exercised. I believe I have the right to make that choice myself but within the narrow confines of that legislation.
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'I fear with this motion, my terror really, is not so much how it will begin but how it will end'
Plaid Cymru MS Delyth Jewell says this is a debate prompted by compassion and the desire to not see someone suffer, and she understands that but will be voting again.
She says nearly everyone who approaches this debate will do so through the lens of the last moments of someone they love, someone they've seen suffer, someone whose pain they wanted desperately to lessen. How could anyone disagree with that? My contention though is we must also look at this those through the lens of people not surrounded by people they love. Those marginalised and pushed to the sidelines by society.
I fear with this motion, my terror really, is not so much how it will begin but how it will end.
She also quotes examples of people in countries where laws have changed after introduction. She says there are examples where lives might have ended that "might have got better". She says in Oregon, 47% of people cited they didn't want to be burden on caregivers.
She says this is the most difficult debate she has ever spoken in. Visibly emotional, she says: "The terror I feel about this is not a trifling thing."
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'Dangerous precedent'
Conservative regional MS Joel James, who represents South Wales Central, says he will not be backing the motion. He says he believes it will set a dangerous precedent. He says everyone has the right in the UK to high quality palliative care which is not the same elsewhere.
Mr James says in other countries the law has been extended after initially being introduced. He says consituents have raised a concern that this law would "change the narrative" in society because a value judgement will be made about peoples lives.
He quotes an example of a man who died via assisted dying where the only reason was given was of hearing loss.
Mr James faces an interjection by Llanelli MS Lee Waters who says the examples he is giving are not things that would be included in this law, Mr James responds saying he is showing what it could expand to.
"We all want the same for those suffering, dignity and compassion, but euthansia is not the way".
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'Many members' wish to speak
Deputy presiding officer David Rees is in the chair and says there are "many members" who wish to speak.
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'This debate cannot be ignored'
Mrs Morgan references the bill by Kim Leadbeater currently going through the process in the UK Parliament, as well as private members' bill in the House of Lords. "This debate cannot be ignored".
Mrs Morgan says at the moment one person, every eight days goes to Dignatas in Switzerland but anyone who assists them will be treated as a criminal. She says it is a "cruel law". "Surely we can do better than that," she said.
Mrs Morgan says a change in the law would not impact the hospice movement. "It is not one or the other," he said. "Support for this bill does not show any lack of support for the hospice sector". She says the cost of an assisted death in Switzerland is prohibitive, ranging between £10,000 and £15,000. "It's only an option for the wealthy".
Mrs Morgan says she knows there are many views and she respects the views of everyone in the room. She says the idea it is a "slippery slope" which could extend to disabled people but says she believes two doctors have to be involved, and present, for assisted dying and one of those should be an expert in the illness the person has.
She says there are 31 jurisdictions where this is in place, and a bill could learn from all of those.
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Debate begins
Julie Morgan, the Labour MS, will open the debate, it will be closed, once it has finished by the health minister, Jeremy Miles.
As a reminder, the vote is not binding and will not change the law in Wales.
Mrs Morgan says that it was last debated 10 years ago, and now the national conversation is "ramping up" it is "absolutely right" that the matter of "great consequence" is debated now.
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Debate to begin imminently
The debate is begin shortly, the (very short) item before has just begun.
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'It's too easy to extend the scope'
Carys Moseley was at the Senedd with a group opposing today's motion.
The problem is that once you, as other jurisdictions have shown, is that it's was very easy to extend the meaning and the criteria for allowing people to have euthansia or assisted suicide, which is what happened.
KIm Leadbeater says this isn't a slippery slope but there are already MPs in Westminster already drawing up amendments - of course it hasn't been published yet - we know that and I'm afraid, that is exactly what we need to be looking out for.
The public thinks 'we know what terminal illness is' but it's actually shifting, isn't it? Some illnesses that have been terminal become not terminal through medical research. My concern is that once you legalise this. what message does it give to those who want to do clinical trials, medical research to help people have actual healing from an illness or at least a liveable life.
This is about the specific issue really, and not the general principle, and anything that could undermine the openness of social care and palliative care. We have a great hospice sector in Wales and that goes back many years and could be subtly undermined and the morale of medical professions in Wales and healthcare profession could, in the long term, be undermined if politicians keep on doing this.
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Images from the Senedd today
Photographer Rob Browne was at the Senedd where two opposing groups were making their case before this afternoon's debate.
On one side of the Senedd steps were those supporting the motion, put forward by Labour's Julie Morgan and which has cross-party support.
On the other were representatives from Christian Concern who say they do not back the motion, or the bill currently going through Westminster.
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'I don't want to be a burden'
Karen Harries, 60, also from Carmarthenshire has fibromyalgia and ME. When she was first diagnosed in 2012, she says she was lucky to get out of bed for half an hour a day. "But I've worked hard with non-medical intervention to have some semblance of a life because when I first diagnosed in 2012 I literally just couldn't get out of bed. I have periods like that now where I can't get out of bed for days, weeks and one day that may become the permanent again and I won't be able to do the things I do now to help like yoga and acupuncture".
I don't want to be a burden and I will become a burden. At the moment, my mental faculties are still good it is just my body is broken physically and to be trapped in my body, unable to get myself out of bed, be able to take care of myself and having watch loved ones do that for me is very hard, very hard to envisage.
I just want the ability to make a decision. People's positions are different., there there are people who I have MND whose decision would be now because they know they are on a certain trajectory and that is a horrific way to die. People like myself and Gemma, we hope we will continue living a life for the next 10 years, 20 years.
But what upsets us is we're only asking for this choice for ourselves. People just jump in and we need to try and educate people more about what's going on.
We're also not comfortable with Westminster making the decision for us here in Wales. It's not devolved because it sits under criminal justice but it could be reclassified because if there was a law to come into passing then it would fall under health and social care which is managed differently in Wales. Then it would be the Welsh people informing and contributing to what the Welsh law looks like as they are in Scotland and we're just going to get dictated to by Westminster.
The debate being discussed in the Senedd covers people with a long-suffering condition. Kim Leadbeater's Westminster bill is for terminally ill people.
We just feel that doesn't like us far enough. It wouldn't cover us and we cold be locked in our bodies for years. My great aunt died at 103. And she spent the last four years asking to be let go. She was confined to bed but her heart just didn't give up. And who are we to say thatis what is right and wrong for our life?
On other things we're expected to make our own choices and be responsible for ourselves and here we are saying 'we want to be responsible'
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'I should decide when my suffering becomes too much'
Gemma Williams, 46, lives with Multiple Sclerosis. She was at the Senedd supporting today's motion.
There will come a point where I won't have periods of remission and I think it's important that I can decide when my suffering becomes too much and that I have the choice to end things.
"When I watch my elderly gran she suffered tremendously at end of life, but at the same time she was dying my friend's mum was living in Holland, and she had terminal cancer, and she opted for an assisted death and it was so much kinder, what she went through over what my family went through.
It doesn't make sense that we don't have this choice in the UK.
Her position, she says, has got stronger over time and doesn't change depending on the fluctuations in her own health.
It's got stronger over time. I've always thought it was something that should be, but the more I've seen it, the more people I've seen suffering and and seeing other people in countries where it is allowed, it just doesn't seem right that we don't have it over here.
To me it is very clear cut and simple, but I can understand not everybody feels the same. But I think we should all be able to choose ourselves. I'm not asking anybody to do it or have it if they don't want to hear. And I with the appropriate safe guards it can work well as it does in other countries.
She said she wasn't sure how today's vote would go, and she would be disappointed if it didn't pass, but would keep campaigning.
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The background to the proposal
This article lays out the background to the Bill, which would be legally binding and which would cover Wales, currently going through the parliamentary process in London.
Assisted dying is the act of allowing someone with a terminal illness the choice to control their own death. It is currently banned in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and it carries a maximum prison sentence of 14 years. In Scotland, it is not a specific criminal offence but could leave a person open to being charged with murder or other crimes.
You can read more here.
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The counter argument
A counter-protest will be held by Distant Voices, Christian Concern, the Christian Medical Fellowship and SPUC.. They will take mock gravestones to the Senedd to demonstrate their concerns over the "far-reaching consequences of legalising assisted suicide".
Standing by gravestone signs sharing some of the stories of those who have died in Canada and other countries, they will demonstrate that opening the door to assisted suicide and euthanasia leads to more suffering and harm, not less.
Andrea Williams, chief executive of Christian Concern said:
The statistics we will be displaying outside Senedd show that the slippery slope is real. Once a country legalises assisted suicide, the ‘safeguards’ inevitably get widened and vulnerable feel pressure to end their lives. Helping people to end their lives is neither compassionate nor caring.
The UK Parliament and the courts have rightly refused to change the law multiple times in the last few decades. MPs need to decide once again that human life deserves protection and care. We cannot be a society that believes some people are ‘better off dead’.
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Those in favour
Humanists UK is the national charity working on behalf of non-religious people and is in favour of this motion today. They believe that while the Senedd itself doesn't have powers to change the law in Wales, a vote in favour would send a signal to Westminster - where the second reading of a bill by Kim Leadbeater MP (the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill) will next be heard on Friday, November 29.
Kathy Riddick, Wales Humanists Coordinator, said:
This is a welcome opportunity for the people of Wales to express their support for freedom of choice and human dignity. We are hopeful that a debate in the Senedd will provide a further voice for the growing public support for assisted dying across the UK, and will spur a compassionate change in the law from Westminster.
People who are suffering deserve compassion, dignity, and choice. So far, assisted dying proposals in England and Wales have been limited to people who have six months or fewer left to live but this isn’t compassionate enough. Some adults who are suffering from conditions like multiple sclerosis aren’t terminally ill and wouldn’t be eligible. We are glad this motion in the Senedd also includes people who are intolerably suffering from an incurable, physical condition.
Members of the "pro" group are expected to be at a rally on the Senedd steps today.
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How has it got here?
The debate today has been put forward by Labour MS Julie Morgan. It is a member debate, meaning it is not a government nor party debate, but a personal one. On certain topics, like assisted dying, there is a convention that politicians are given a free vote and not "whipped" (told) by their party how to vote.
As well as Mrs Morgan, there are co-submitters from Plaid Cymru (Heledd Fychan, Adam Price) and the Welsh Conservatives (James Evans), as well as an additional five supporters (Carolyn Thomas, Jenny Rathbone, Mick Antoniw, Natasha Asghar and Rhys ab Owen).
The debate is listed for an hour in total and will be followed by a vote. The times are fluid, but the debate could start at 3.30pm and the vote around 7.30pm, we will be able to see how each MS voted.